Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Essa é a seção para conversas gerais sobre RPG, que não são sobre um sistema específico ou envolvem a sociedade em discussão sobre aspectos culturais, religiosos, comportamentais e educacionais do RPG, a popularização do jogo e o combate ao preconceito.

Moderador: Moderadores

Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Lumine Miyavi em 01 Jul 2011, 21:30

Tem algo que SEMPRE me deixou com pulga atrás da orelha. Porque em fantasia, um Mago é um sábio respeitável, um conselheiro, um guia espíritual pro heroí enquanto a Feiticeira é uma figura maligna, cruel e sádica, que só faz maldições e etc.

Why Gandalf Never Married, 1985 talk by Terry Pratchett escreveu: want to talk about magic, how magic is portrayed in fantasy, how fantasy literature has in fact contributed to a very distinct image of magic, and perhaps most importantly how the Western world in general has come to accept a very precise and extremely suspect image of magic users.

I'd better say at the start that I don't actually believe in magic any more than I believe in astrology, because I'm a Taurean and we don't go in for all that weirdo occult stuff.

But a couple of years ago I wrote a book called The Colour of Magic. It had some boffo laughs. It was an attempt to do for the classical fantasy universe what Blazing Saddles did for Westerns. It was also my tribute to twenty-five years of fantasy reading, which started when I was thirteen and read Lord of the Rings in 25 hours. That damn book was a halfbrick in the path of the bicycle of my life. I started reading fantasy books at the kind of speed you can only manage in your early teens. I panted for the stuff.

I had a deprived childhood, you see. I had lots of other kids to play with and my parents bought me outdoor toys and refused to ill-treat me, so it never occurred to me to seek solitary consolation with a good book.

Then Tolkien changed all that. I went mad for fantasy. Comics, boring Norse sagas, even more boring Victorian fantasy ... I'd better explain to younger listeners that in those days fantasy was not available in every toyshop and bookstall, it was really a bit like sex: you didn't know where to get the really dirty books, so all you could do was paw hopefully through Amateur Photography magazines looking for artistic nudes.

When I couldn't get it -- heroic fantasy, I mean, not sex -- I hung around the children's section in the public libraries, trying to lure books about dragons and elves to come home with me. I even bought and read all the Narnia books in one go, which was bit like a surfeit of Communion wafers. I didn't care any more.

Eventually the authorities caught up with me and kept me in a dark room with small doses of science fiction until I broke the habit and now I can walk past a book with a dragon on the cover and my hands hardly sweat at all.

But a part of my mind remained plugged into what I might call the consensus fantasy universe. It does exist, and you all know it. It has been formed by folklore and Victorian romantics and Walt Disney, and E R Eddison and Jack Vance and Ursula Le Guin and Fritz Leiber -- hasn't it? In fact those writers and a handful of others have very closely defined it. There are now, to the delight of parasitical writers like me, what I might almost call "public domain" plot items. There are dragons, and magic users, and far horizons, and quests, and items of power, and weird cities. There's the kind of scenery that we would have had on Earth if only God had had the money.

To see the consensus fantasy universe in detail you need only look at the classical Dungeons and Dragon role-playing games. They are mosaics of every fantasy story you've ever read.

Of course, the consensus fantasy universe is full of cliches, almost by definition. Elves are tall and fair and use bows, dwarves are small and dark and vote Labour. And magic works. That's the difference between magic in the fantasy universe and magic here. In the fantasy universe a wizard points his fingers and all these sort of blue glittery lights come out and there's a sort of explosion and some poor soul is turned into something horrible.

Anyway, if you are in the market for easy laughs you learn that two well-tried ways are either to trip up a cliche or take things absolutely literally. So in the sequel to The Colour of Magic, which is being rushed into print with all the speed of continental drift, you'll learn what happens, for example, if someone like me gets hold of the idea that megalithic stone circles are really complex computers. What you get is, you get druids walking around talking a sort of computer jargon and referring to Stonehenge as the miracle of the silicon chunk.

While I was plundering the fantasy world for the next cliche to pulls a few laughs from, I found one which was so deeply ingrained that you hardly notice it is there at all. In fact it struck me so vividly that I actually began to look at it seriously.

That's the generally very clear division between magic done by women and magic done by men.

Let's talk about wizards and witches. There is a tendency to talk of them in one breath, as though they were simply different sexual labels for the same job. It isn't true. In the fantasy world there is no such thing as a male witch. Warlocks, I hear you cry, but it's true. Oh, I'll accept you can postulate them for a particular story, but I'm talking here about the general tendency. There certainly isn't such a thing as a female wizard.

Sorceress? Just a better class of witch. Enchantress? Just a witch with good legs. The fantasy world. in fact, is overdue for a visit from the Equal Opportunities people because, in the fantasy world, magic done by women is usually of poor quality, third-rate, negative stuff, while the wizards are usually cerebral, clever, powerful, and wise.

Strangely enough, that's also the case in this world. You don't have to believe in magic to notice that.

Wizards get to do a better class of magic, while witches give you warts.

The archetypal wizard is of course Merlin, advisor of kings, maker of the Round Table, and the only man who knew how to work the electromagnet that released the Sword from the Stone. He is not in fact a folklore hero, because much of what we know about him is based firmly on Geoffrey de Monmouth's Life of Merlin, written in the Twelfth Century. Old Geoffrey was one of the world's great writers of fantasy, nearly as good as Fritz Leiber but without that thing about cats.

Had a lot of trouble with women, did Merlin. Morgan Le Fay -- a witch -- was his main enemy but he was finally trapped in his crystal cave or his enchanted forest, pick your own variation, by a female pupil. The message is clear, boys: that's what happens to you if you let the real powerful magic get into the hands of women.

In fact Merlin is almost being replaced as the number one wizard by Gandalf, whose magic is more suggested than apparent. I'd also like to bring in at this point a third wizard, of whom most of you must have heard -- Ged, the wizard of Earthsea. I do this because Ursula Le Guin's books give us a very well thought-out, and typical, magic world. I'd suggest that they worked because they plugged so neatly into our group image of how magic is ordered. They serve to point up some of the similarities in our wizards.

They're all bachelors, and sexually continent. In this fantasy is in agreement with some of the standard works on magic, which make it clear that a good wizard doesn't get his end away. (Funny, because there's no such prohibition on witches; they can be at it like knives the whole time and it doesn't affect their magic at all.) Wizards tend to exist in Orders, or hierarchies, and certainly the Island of Gont reminds me of nothing so much as a medieval European university, or maybe a monastery. There don't seem to be many women around the University, although I suppose someone cleans the lavatories. There are indeed some female practitioners of magic around Earthsea, but if they are not actually evil then they are either misguided or treated by Ged in the same way that a Harley Street obstetrician treats a local midwife.

Can you imagine a girl trying to get a place at the University of Gont? Or I can put it another way -- can you imagine a female Gandalf?

Of course I hardly need mention the true fairytale witches, as malevolent a bunch of crones as you could imagine. It was probably living in those gingerbread cottages. No wonder witches were always portrayed as toothless -- it was living in a 90,000 calorie house that did it. You'd hear a noise in the night and it'd be the local kids, eating the doorknob. According to my eight-year-old daughter's book on Wizards, a nicely-illustrated little paperback available at any good bookshop, "wizards undid the harm caused by evil witches". There it is again, the recurrent message: female magic is cheap and nasty.

But why is all this? Is there anything in the real world that is reflected in fantasy?

The curious thing is that the Western world at least has no very great magical tradition. You can look in vain for any genuine wizards, or for witches for that matter. I know a large number of people who think of themselves as witches, pagans or magicians, and the more realistic of them will admit that while they like to think that they are following a tradition laid down in the well-known Dawn of Time they really picked it all up from books and, yes, fantasy stories. I have come to believe that fantasy fiction in all its forms has no basis in anything in the real world. I believe that witches and witches get their ideas from their reading matter or, before that, from folklore. Fiction invents reality.

In Western Europe, certainly, wizards are few and far between. I have been able to turn up a dozen or so, who with the 20-20 hindsight of history look like either conmen or conjurers. Druids almost fit the bill, but Druids were a few lines by Julius Caesar until they were reinvented a couple of hundred years ago. All this business with the white robes and the sickles and the oneness with nature is wishful thinking. It's significant, though. Caesar portrayed them as vicious priests of a religion based on human sacrifice, and gory to the elbows. But the PR of history has nevertheless turned them into mystical shamans, unless I mean shamen; men of peace, brewers of magic potions.

Despite the claim that nine million people were executed for witchcraft in Europe in the three centuries from 1400 -- this turns up a lot in books of popular occultism and I can only say it is probably as reliable as everything else they contain -- it is hard to find genuine evidence of a widespread witchcraft cult. I know a number of people who call themselves witches. No, they are witches -- why should I disbelieve them? Their religion strikes me as woolly but well-meaning and at the very least harmless. Modern witchcraft is the Friends of the Earth at prayer. If it has any root at all they lie in the works of a former Colonial civil servant and pioneer naturist called Gerald Gardiner, but I suggest that its is really based in a mishmash of herbalism, Sixties undirected occultism, and The Lord of the Rings.

But I must accept that people called witches have existed. In a sense they have been created by folklore, by what I call the Flying Saucer process -- you know, someone sees something they can't or won't explain in the sky, is aware that there is a popular history of sightings of flying saucers, so decides that what he has seen is a flying saucer, and pretty soon that "sighting" adds another few flakes to the great snowball of saucerology. In the same way, the peasant knows that witches are ugly old women who live by themselves because the folklore says so, so the local crone must be a witch. Soon everyone locally KNOWS that there is a witch in the next valley, various tricks of fate are laid at her door, and so the great myth chugs on.

One may look in vain for similar widespread evidence of wizards. In addition to the double handful of doubtful practitioners mentioned above, half of whom are more readily identifiable as alchemists or windbags, all I could come up with was some vaguely masonic cults, like the Horseman's Word in East Anglia. Not much for Gandalf in there.

Now you can take the view that of course this is the case, because if there is a dirty end of the stick then women will get it. Anything done by women is automatically downgraded. This is the view widely held -- well, widely held by my wife every since she started going to consciousness-raising group meetings -- who tells me it's ridiculous to speculate on the topic because the answer is so obvious. Magic, according to this theory, is something that only men can be really good at, and therefore any attempt by women to trespass on the sacred turf must be rigorously stamped out. Women are regarded by men as the second sex, and their magic is therefore automatically inferior. There's also a lot of stuff about man's natural fear of a woman with power; witches were poor women seeking one of the few routes to power open to them, and men fought back with torture, fire and ridicule.

I'd like to know that this is all it really is. But the fact is that the consensus fantasy universe has picked up the idea and maintains it. I incline to a different view, if only to keep the argument going, that the whole thing is a lot more metaphorical than that. The sex of the magic practitioner doesn't really enter into it. The classical wizard, I suggest, represents the ideal of magic -- everything that we hope we would be, if we had the power. The classical witch, on the other hand, with her often malevolent interest in the small beer of human affairs, is everything we fear only too well that we would in fact become.

Oh well, it won't win me a PhD. I suspect that via the insidious medium of picture books for children the wizards will continue to practice their high magic and the witches will perform their evil, bad-tempered spells. It's going to be a long time before there's room for equal rites.


Fonte do texto: http://www.ansible.co.uk/misc/tpspeech.html
ImagemImagem ImagemImagemImagemImagem
Let's Play de FF8! \o\ Adaptações do Lumine! [d20!] Cidadeando o Tarrasque!
Blog do Lumine, PhieLuminando!
Avatar atual: Izumi Shingo + Ankh, Kamen Rider OOOs
Tabus na Spell: Ronassicar / Allefar o trabalho alheio
I return to help burn / Your people's future down / You destroyed my children / You forced my retribution / The battle is ending / True war is just beginning! / I'll learn from this disaster / I'll build eight robot masters...
Avatar do usuário
Lumine Miyavi
Coordenador de desenvolvimento do sistema S2
 
Mensagens: 7856
Registrado em: 25 Ago 2007, 11:15
Localização: Duque de Caxias RJ
Twitter: http://twitter.com/PhielLumine

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Deicide em 01 Jul 2011, 22:17

Eu já havia reparado nisso.

É simplesmente uma... tradição, sei lá. É a figura básica. Sempre foi assim; acho que é um efeito da ascensão do cristianismo sobre as velhas religiões. Antes, era a velha sábia que era a matriarca e guia espiritual da tribo ou do clã; depois, foi surgindo a noção de que são bruxas perversas.

Uma coisa que gosto ao ler esse texto todo é perceber que em meus jogos fugi desse estereótipo sem nem perceber. Há uma boa quantidade de velhos bruxos e boas e sábias magas (que não andam com pouca roupa) nas histórias que já mestre, e nem foi um esforço consciente.
Há incontáveis séculos, houve um reino, Eussey-lah seu nome, que se estendeu por todas as terras do mundo conhecido. Esse tempo acabou quando o rei-destino, Khem, enlouqueceu e quase levou o mundo à ruína. Sete heróis e um oráculo o impediram.

Desde então, grandes heróis e vilões têm mantido o mundo girando a cada geração.


Avatar do usuário
Deicide
 
Mensagens: 2014
Registrado em: 01 Set 2007, 23:10

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Youkai X em 02 Jul 2011, 04:28

Realmente é isso, Lumine. Triste que isso ainda seja uma visão bem comum. Eu poderia dizer que sou uma exceção em parte, mas exceção não desmente a regra geral.

Na minha campanha atual de 4e, apareceram tanto magos sábios e bem inteligentes quanto bruxos necromantes que conspiram pelas sombras ou manipuladores de diabos cruéis, e as poucas mulheres conjuradoras que apareceram são magas do lado dos PCs e uma xamã idosa e determinada, que apesar da aparição curta, mostrou-se nobre de espírito e terminou desaparecida. Claro que uma das maiores vilãs é uma feiticeira drow do sangue que faz pactos com diversos seres, mas ela é muito poderosa e astuta e dos magos sábios que apareceram nenhum se compara em poderia a ela.
Avatar do usuário
Youkai X
 
Mensagens: 4506
Registrado em: 29 Ago 2007, 16:26
Localização: Manaus, no não-mundo

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor GoldGreatWyrm em 02 Jul 2011, 12:42

Invertido em Heroes of Might and Magic - Warlocks eram conjuradores malignos que se focavam em spellpower, enquanto as Sorcereresses eram princesas disney que se focavam em knowledge.
Imagem
SPOILER: EXIBIR
Imagem
Imagem
Avatar do usuário
GoldGreatWyrm
 
Mensagens: 3301
Registrado em: 26 Ago 2007, 20:26
Localização: Porto Alegre, RS
Twitter: http://twitter.com/goldwyrm

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Lumine Miyavi em 03 Jul 2011, 11:24

Bom, tirando o GG, ninguém mais tem algum exemplo pra esse sexismo fora da própria mesa? (Terry Pratchet não conta, viu? XD)
ImagemImagem ImagemImagemImagemImagem
Let's Play de FF8! \o\ Adaptações do Lumine! [d20!] Cidadeando o Tarrasque!
Blog do Lumine, PhieLuminando!
Avatar atual: Izumi Shingo + Ankh, Kamen Rider OOOs
Tabus na Spell: Ronassicar / Allefar o trabalho alheio
I return to help burn / Your people's future down / You destroyed my children / You forced my retribution / The battle is ending / True war is just beginning! / I'll learn from this disaster / I'll build eight robot masters...
Avatar do usuário
Lumine Miyavi
Coordenador de desenvolvimento do sistema S2
 
Mensagens: 7856
Registrado em: 25 Ago 2007, 11:15
Localização: Duque de Caxias RJ
Twitter: http://twitter.com/PhielLumine

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor _Virtual_Adept_ em 03 Jul 2011, 16:37

Acho que a questão está no termo bruxa. Ainda que concorde que, geralmente, mulheres foram mais perseguidas no decorrer da história por acusações de bruxaria do que homens, modernamente é bem mais comum encontrarmos figuras mágicas boas do sexo feminino do que do masculino (vide as fadas madrinhas). E, quando se tem um bruxo, ele também tende a ser maligno (Anastasia, alguém lembra?)
Adepto do Heroísmo, blog sobre Mutantes & Malfeitores.
Avatar do usuário
_Virtual_Adept_
Webmaster
 
Mensagens: 6879
Registrado em: 25 Ago 2007, 14:31
Localização: Manaus
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Denommus

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Lumine Miyavi em 03 Jul 2011, 16:46

Fadas são seres mágicos e não humanos. Se bem que contando assim, Merlin também era um ser mítico meio demônio. :hum:
ImagemImagem ImagemImagemImagemImagem
Let's Play de FF8! \o\ Adaptações do Lumine! [d20!] Cidadeando o Tarrasque!
Blog do Lumine, PhieLuminando!
Avatar atual: Izumi Shingo + Ankh, Kamen Rider OOOs
Tabus na Spell: Ronassicar / Allefar o trabalho alheio
I return to help burn / Your people's future down / You destroyed my children / You forced my retribution / The battle is ending / True war is just beginning! / I'll learn from this disaster / I'll build eight robot masters...
Avatar do usuário
Lumine Miyavi
Coordenador de desenvolvimento do sistema S2
 
Mensagens: 7856
Registrado em: 25 Ago 2007, 11:15
Localização: Duque de Caxias RJ
Twitter: http://twitter.com/PhielLumine

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor _Virtual_Adept_ em 03 Jul 2011, 17:16

Humanas ou não humanas, fadas são antropomórficas. Vemos tanta humanidade nelas quanto numa bruxa.

De qualquer forma, eu sou obrigado a concordar que, em diversas mídias, criaturas mágicas malignas do sexo feminino são muito mais comuns que benignas. Até no Smurfs, cara!
Adepto do Heroísmo, blog sobre Mutantes & Malfeitores.
Avatar do usuário
_Virtual_Adept_
Webmaster
 
Mensagens: 6879
Registrado em: 25 Ago 2007, 14:31
Localização: Manaus
Twitter: http://twitter.com/Denommus

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Russel em 03 Jul 2011, 17:59

o meu caso é exatamente o contrario. eu nunca usei uma vilã na minha mesa XD
Editado pela última vez por Russel em 03 Jul 2011, 19:18, em um total de 1 vez.
"Existem duas soluções pra tudo: O tempo e o foda-se"
Avatar do usuário
Russel
 
Mensagens: 638
Registrado em: 15 Out 2010, 17:52

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Lumine Miyavi em 03 Jul 2011, 19:01

_Virtual_Adept_ escreveu:Até no Smurfs, cara!

...pqp, é verdade. A Smurfette foi criada pelo Gargamel!

(alias, porque ele não criou mais Smurfs sintéticos? Digo, teria Smurfs pro que quisesse!)
ImagemImagem ImagemImagemImagemImagem
Let's Play de FF8! \o\ Adaptações do Lumine! [d20!] Cidadeando o Tarrasque!
Blog do Lumine, PhieLuminando!
Avatar atual: Izumi Shingo + Ankh, Kamen Rider OOOs
Tabus na Spell: Ronassicar / Allefar o trabalho alheio
I return to help burn / Your people's future down / You destroyed my children / You forced my retribution / The battle is ending / True war is just beginning! / I'll learn from this disaster / I'll build eight robot masters...
Avatar do usuário
Lumine Miyavi
Coordenador de desenvolvimento do sistema S2
 
Mensagens: 7856
Registrado em: 25 Ago 2007, 11:15
Localização: Duque de Caxias RJ
Twitter: http://twitter.com/PhielLumine

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Youkai X em 03 Jul 2011, 19:19

Russel escreveu:o meu caso é exatamente o contrario. eu nunca usei uma vilã na minha mesa XD


Bem, tu me parece o tipo que quase nunca coloca personagens femininas em mesa, então não conta :linguinha:
Avatar do usuário
Youkai X
 
Mensagens: 4506
Registrado em: 29 Ago 2007, 16:26
Localização: Manaus, no não-mundo

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Russel em 03 Jul 2011, 19:51

Youkai X escreveu:
Russel escreveu:o meu caso é exatamente o contrario. eu nunca usei uma vilã na minha mesa XD


Bem, tu me parece o tipo que quase nunca coloca personagens femininas em mesa, então não conta


aqui pra você: :linguinha:

na verdade já coloquei bastante pdms femininas em mesa (mas elas nunca são vilãs)
"Existem duas soluções pra tudo: O tempo e o foda-se"
Avatar do usuário
Russel
 
Mensagens: 638
Registrado em: 15 Out 2010, 17:52

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor joao-aragorn em 04 Jul 2011, 11:42

Unn, pra começar, o Pratchett é foda .
Concordo com o Deicide que ha´p a questão das religiões e da tradição, de fato. Mas achoq eu a construção passou do simples critério do sexismo, há uam crença no "poder feminino" e uma jsutificativa edêmica(Eva e Lilith ) nesse esquema aí, relacionando liberdade e a busca do conheicmento proibido com magia "negra".

Vale citar o livro "A Feiticeira" do Michelet, no qual ele fala sobre os "poderes e liberdades" da mulher, e como a forma suprema de liberdade é satanás. No mínimo, curioso.
Avatar do usuário
joao-aragorn
 
Mensagens: 466
Registrado em: 28 Ago 2007, 11:03
Localização: São Paulo

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor MagoCego em 04 Jul 2011, 11:54

Dos contos de fada que eu lembro, sempre são bruxas.
I'll Crush Your Face Into The Ground!!!
Avatar do usuário
MagoCego
 
Mensagens: 1258
Registrado em: 23 Jun 2009, 00:37
Localização: Belo Horizonte

Re: Bruxos e Bruxas, sexismo em Fantasia

Mensagempor Deicide em 04 Jul 2011, 18:07

Vendo o post do Russel, começo a pensar: quem aqui já fez vilãs memoráveis?

Estava fazendo uma análise dos meus jogos, e embora haja vilãs e mulheres malignas aqui e acolá, o "big bad" é sempre homem (ou coisa indefinida). Nunca tinha reparado nisso, e imagino que com muita gente é assim, o que explica a fuga desse estereótipo da "bruxa" em mesas de jogo.

Quem aqui já fez ou encontrou uma vilã memorável?
Há incontáveis séculos, houve um reino, Eussey-lah seu nome, que se estendeu por todas as terras do mundo conhecido. Esse tempo acabou quando o rei-destino, Khem, enlouqueceu e quase levou o mundo à ruína. Sete heróis e um oráculo o impediram.

Desde então, grandes heróis e vilões têm mantido o mundo girando a cada geração.


Avatar do usuário
Deicide
 
Mensagens: 2014
Registrado em: 01 Set 2007, 23:10

Próximo

Voltar para Dicas & Ideias

Quem está online

Usuários navegando neste fórum: Nenhum usuário registrado e 1 visitante

cron