NOTÍCIAS D&D 4ª Edição

[Khelben Arunsun]

Realmente, uma habilidade como Water Walk pode ser útil nas mais variadas situações. Se um jogador a tem, é cargo do Mestre dar-lhe a oportunidade de usá-la em benefício próprio e do grupo.

[Dinobot]

Pensa assim... Um personagem com athletics nada e atravessa o rio. O Mago faz o ritual e atravessa o rio andando, com todo o equipamento seco, com qualquer armadura que ele esteja usando seo e intacto, todos os pergaminhos e livros de magia secos, etc, etc, etc... Alem de ser mais rápido e discreto que um barco e bem ou mal, o ritual vai estar sempre com o mago... Voce guarda componentes materiais e dinheiro numa mochila... nao se carrega um barco nisso...

[Fëanor]

O mago provavelmente vai lançar ele para feitos estratégicos, como lançar o rito no Ladino para ele esgueirar até o navio inimigo rapidamente, ou para possibilitar livre movimentação até a fortaleza no meio do lago, onde um barco seria facilmente notado. Além disso, a duração do rito pode permitir atravessar vários corpos aquosos ou ir e voltar várias vezes.

Se a questão é não ser notado e velocidade o melhor é voo ou teleporte, como você mesmo falou.

Pessoal tem que pensar nas formas variadas de usar o poder ao invés de ter um olhar crítico depreciativo que vê a situação mais inútil e já começa a rir do poder dizendo que não presta. Isso sim parece imaturidade pra mim.

Ninguém riu, eu só achei que um efeito razoavelmente simples como Water Walk seria muito mais util como habilidade por encontro de duração curta.

Um que não tenha um barco disponivel por perto?

Bah, agora nem posso mais fazer quests para os jogadores procurarem um barco?

[Lunguinho]

Se a questão é não ser notado e velocidade o melhor é voo ou teleporte, como você mesmo falou.

Não necessariamente. Você pode usar esse ritual em niveis baixos enquanto que voo e teleporte so estao disponiveis em niveis mais altos, alem de serem mais caros tambem.

[Sellous]

Entendo o teu ponto, mas na prática, acho que ocorre o inverso. Jogos eletrônicos geralmente controlam muito pouco o sono, e isso quebra o esquema completamente. Por exemplo, em Neverwinter Nights, você pode "dormir" a virtualmente qualquer momento e renovar todas as magias. Alguns módulos de terceiros mexiam com isso, e a expansão do NWN2 penalizava isso com a perda de soul points, mas nunca foi algo "mainstream".

Hum.. é, levando isso em consideração, você tem razão. Se bem que em alguns jogos dormir trazia tantos encontros aleatórios que enchia o saco tentar. Aliás, só como um desabafo, fico triste de termos terminado a 3.x edição e não termos tido mais jogos com sistema de combate do Temple of Elemental Evil. Achei sensacional os combates, se não fosse pela aventura fraca e os bugs... (ainda bem que existe o Co8). Espero que venham jogos melhores com essa nova edição.

Vale lembrar que temos os rituais para manifestar efeitos especiais fora do combate e que não há limite de uso para eles. Tudo bem que há um custo em dinheiro para realizá-los, mas esse custo costuma ser relativamente baixo. Essa mecanica de rituais ainda mantém a versatilidade dos conjuradores fora de combate e pra mim esse foi o maior acerto deles nessa nova edição.

Concordo. Adorei o sistema de rituais, achei super bem colocado, mas não acho que ele substitua a falta de poder usar mais do que 1x um utility power. Os rituais são para magias bem específicas que dificilmente um mago teria memorizado (talvez uma ou duas daquelas), enquanto os utilitys são bem mais... úteis!

Só que... bem... eu esperava que ressuscitar pessoas ficasse mais difícil, e não mais fácil!

[Leisses]

Eu na verdade nem gosto de ress em RPG. Acredito que tem que ser morreu morreu senão os PJs ficam acomodados quanto aos perigos a serem enfrentados.
Estou até pensando em excluir ress da campanha que estou prestes a começar com a 4ed. Viva o até que a morte os separe auhahuauhuhuhauh

[Eltor Macnol]

Eu tenho uma visão radicalmente oposta, e acho que morte permanente de personagens poderia ser completamente abolida do RPG sem estragar em nada a diversão do jogo (e retirando muitos dos problemas que a morte de um personagem traz). Até ia escrever um artigo sobre o assunto, mas aí vazou a 4E e eu tenho outras prioridades agora.

[Corvo da Tempestade]

Os pessoal do grupo que tem atletics vai, nada e passa.
O mago gasta 10 PO e 10 minutos para fazer a mesma coisa: chegar do outro lado.

Ele não "gasta" 10 PO, ele tem que ter 10 PO em "componentes arcanos". A diferência parece ouca, mas pode ser essencial se o mago em questão estiver em um em uma área completamente selvabem ( e não ter os tais "componentes arcanos")

Espero não ter enrrolado em minha explicação.

[Fëanor]

Ele não "gasta" 10 PO, ele tem que ter 10 PO em "componentes arcanos". A diferência parece ouca, mas pode ser essencial se o mago em questão estiver em um em uma área completamente selvabem ( e não ter os tais "componentes arcanos")

Sim sim.
Mas se o mago comprou até o livro para executar o ritual, ele compraria componentes necessários para executar a magias pelo menos umas 5 vezes na aventura.

[Torneco]

Eu acho que seria interessante transformar algumas magias diárias em rituais. Assim ainda seria possível usar elas mais vezes, e não ficaria tão roubado.

[Fëanor]

Disguise Self acho que seria bom como ritual.

[Leisses]

Eu falo do ress porque estou acostumado com jogadores que se acomodam, e muito, com a chamada "imortalidade aparente". E isso me incomoda porque a galera não pensa duas vezes antes de ir no rumo do monstro overpower. Como é o caso que meu irmão estava contando sobre ogrupo dele onde o povo level 6 subiu a montanha de um dragão adulto para roubar os ovos dele para uns elfos loucos o.O

[Eltor Macnol]

Existem zilhares de formas que os personagens podem ser penalizados por falhas nas tarefas que se propõem a fazer, sem envolver a morte permanente. Mas no exemplo desses aventureiros aí, ninguém disse que só porque eles resolveram subir a montanha pra roubar os tais ovos eles conseguiriam. Eu acho que a morte permanente dos personagens em condições normais é desnecessária, mas suicídio coletivo é outra história.

[Deicide]

Não se pode culpar o sistema pela burrice dos jogadores...

[Lunguinho]

Vi uma opiniao sobre a 4ª edição bem interessante de um usuário de um forum gringo e resolvi transcrevê-la aqui para ver o que vocês acham a respeito:

Here follows an accumulation of my ideas and opinions of the new edition, comparing good and bad.

Disclaimer:
The advantages and disadvantages I point out here are my opinions. Other people may not agree with them-or the reasons I label some features good or bad on.


Good points:

Generally speaking, 4E is streamlined, balanced, with simple rules that function well and fast together. It also has much better support for both players and DMs and gives a great deal more insight into how the rules are supposed to work. Rules as Written are clearer and much easier to understand and are backed up by sections of the books writing down how rules are intended to work so the greatly sought phantom of Rules as Intended which players and DMs alike always desired in 3rd edition is now a reality-and it is core. Now, let's take a look at how some of the better ideas of the new edition function and why they are good things;

Many options, few combos;
4E is full of different options in classes, powers, feats, magic items, and racial/paragon/epic abilities. All in all, the new core has slightly more options than the old core if you look at just the number of things. Unlike 3E, in the new rules most things are stand-alone. Boosters to one ability are possible-but the designers have taken their time to look into the available combinations and make sure only the boosts intended are actually available. So, feats are stand-alone instead of in chains, most powers cannot boost one another, magic item and special ability bonuses cannot stack to unintended levels. Instead of the old types of bonuses based on the way something was given (e.g. insight bonus for divinations, morale bonus for enchantments and profane bonus for vile magic) we now have power bonus for powers, feat bonus for feats, item bonus for items and some unnamed bonuses. Why this is a good thing is threeofold;
1) As things do not form combos-at least not complex or hidden ones-it is equally easy for a novice player and a master to get what and how things work-it is also faster. So the new edition is easier to learn. In fact, it is possible to play without learning it at all by just reading the descriptions because the difference between good options and bad options wether in character building, loot or tactics is much smaller.
2) In the end, almost half the time needed in 3E to decide tactics, find the best combos and add up bonuses-or resolve arguments on how bonuses function-is gone. This accounts for much of the increased pace in 4E.
3) Because combos have severely been limited, it is not possible to powergame or munchkinise-at least not to the point of breaking things. Yes, some options are still better than others but the difference in effectiveness is around 50% not the difference between casting a timestop combo with five spells and casting a single meteor swarm.

All in balance.
Every combat option in 4E is roughly equally effective among powers of the same level and equally optimised and equipped characters. It doesn't matter if you're a wizard or a ranger or a cleric-a single target ranged power of the same level deals roughly the same damage if all buffs, abilities and items are equal. Some classes deal more damage to single targets because they have more powers for single targets-or perhaps slightly stronger single-target powers-not because there are great differences between the total damage output. The classes who deal less damage in a single enemy deal it on more than one target or at a range instead and the classes that deal less damage in general have better defences. In the end everything evens out. That is a good thing because:
1) Now fighters can be just as effective as wizards in combat-the same applies to all classes regarding combat effectiveness.
2) Class choices do not change group dynamics overall-now there are no more weak parties of meelers vs strong parties of casters.
3) It is much easier for the DM to find appropriate challenges and judge rewards because he knows the exact group strength.


Different classes of powers
We now have at will, per encounter, per day and ritual powers. This makes it much easier to have both relatively weak effects along with extremely strong ones and combat effects along with utility ones without making a very powerful power better to have than a relatively weak power of the same level-the relatively weak power you can use many times while the very strong one only once. This is good because;
1) It is easier for designers to balance the various powers.
2) It is easier for players to know how and when to use every power.
3) The system is able to support very powerful effects without breaking combat by moving them on to rituals.
4) It is cooler than having only one type of powers per class like only at will attacks for fighters while only per day powers for casters.

Here there be monsters
Monsters-with the help of monster tiers-are easier to handle, faster to work in combat and easier to match against PC capabilities. The monsters are separated in tiers-as we already know-and this works in the DMs favor because;
1) Combat is faster because the monsters are easier to handle.
2) Combat planning is easier and faster because tiers and monster levels are both more accurate and more helpful than the old CR-especially in the loots and rewards department.
3) The system is better able to accomodate powerful monsters and weak monsters at the same levels without problem. In fact, it is made for it.

DM support/Rules as Intended
Perhaps the biggest plus of 4E, even bigger than balance. There are now explanations of how stuff are supposed to function in core-including detailed tables for average monster stats, XP rewards, treasure allotment, encounter creation, monster allotment by tier, customisation, monster advancement, traps and obstacles, noncombat encounters, NPC guidelines and other stuff. Sure, 3E had some of those things but not nearly so detailed and not nearly so extensive-or accurate. Some may accuse the designers of treating DMs as if they lack intelligence but in reality, the charts and guidelines help immensely in homebrewing of any sort (yes there are guidelines for homebrewing rules too) and they contain the mechanics of the game and expected numerical values for all kinds of stuff rather than just advice. That's good;
1) A DM automatically knows when something is overpowering, broken or not supposed to work that way by comparing it with the expected values tables for stats, treasure, monsters and the like.
2) A DM better understands how and why the rules work due to some background info.
3) There are rules for customising and homebrewing that are actually core. You don't have to follow them but as long as you do, anything you make should be playable by anyone with no worries of getting the numbers or the power level wrong.



Bad points:

Generally speaking, 4E core is simplistic, lacks variety, flavor has been downgraded, the mechanics have been downgraded, there's more focus in the mechanics themselves than the flavor, there is no real variety in powers or items, alot of mechanics are not adequately used and all in all the entire edition feels kind of... empty. As if the designers spent so much time making the new mechanics and coming up with cool rules ideas that there was little time left to fill up the edition with more stuff.


All the same
Almost all powers rely on damage. With damage as the only way to actually kill stuff (pc-wise), all the PCs do is whack things to death or defend themselves from attack. There is no real variety in attacks because in the end there are 5 different things powers do in combat; damage, reduce damage/hit chance of enemies, increase hit chance/damage of allies, healing, disabling. In the end, the new edition has lost a very great part of variety in killing stuff (ability damage/drain, death effects, energy drain), defeating stuff without killing them in any way that lasts more than a round or two (polymorph, mind control, imprisoning) and some of the cooler in-combat effects (polymorphing, summoning, conjurations) that last for more than a round or two.

Items
What was said of powers applies in items too. It is not just that items have been made weaker and less numerous. They have also been seriously lacking in variety-and they are considerably fewer.

Feats
Well now characters can gain as many as 18 feats. That's good, right? Nope. Why? Because all the feats, even the most powerful, are just very weak compared to powers and items-and they don't stack. Sure, you can get +3 damage to fire powers with the epic version of a feat that increases damage. But when a power does 50-70 points of damage, 3 points are insignificant.

Downgraded/unused mechanics
The rules themselves-which are pretty good-allow for a plethora of mechanics other than dealing damage to defeat stuff or regain HP to protect/heal yourself. But the majority of mechanics are not used to their full extent for three reasons;
1) Effect duration (other than damage) ends in a round or two. That means that even epic characters cannot mind-control/curse/poison/paralyse a 1st level monster or NPC for more than 12 seconds.
2) HP and the 4 defences are the only thing that really matters in combat. For example, the game mechanics have all these resistances. By the time the monsters have resistance 10 to a damage type, the PCs do 40 points of damage or more so the resistance amounts to only a single negated attack over the entire combat. Elite and Solo monsters just have doubled or quardoubled HP and increased defences instead of actually using the resistance mechanics, regeneration, immunities and buff powers they could have used instead of just an increased number or two.



The ugly

Here are a couple of points that are very serious deterrents against buying 4E. They seriously damage the quality of play, DMing and homebrewing.


PC incompetence
Ever played the 5th level wizard that had a few magic missiles and burning hands memorised at 1st level, 2-3 stronger 2nd level spells like scorching rays, a couple utilities and 2 fireballs for the big hitters? Then, 3 or 4 rounds into a long encounter, you were reduced to casting magic missile and polar ray because you had nothing else? Well, that's EXACTLY how 4E characters play. ALL 4E characters. Of ALL levels. Why? Because at 10th level you know 2 at will, 3 encounter and 3 daily powers. That means you know a grand total of 8 different powers, barring utilities. And guess what? After 10th level you no longer gain new combat powers. You only exchange the old ones for new. So a 30th level character would have, from his class, 2 utility, 3 encounter and 3 daily powers. A grand total of 8 class powers is the maximum you can know at any level.
Do you know why this is bad? Let's see;
1) It's ridiculous. The grand hierophant that is well on his way of becoming a demigod and is the greatest servant of his deity on the world knows only 8 different prayers.
2) Barring at will powers, you can only use a power ONCE. You do not even have the option to memorise it twice. So the most powerful archmage in the world can only cast a single fireball before having to catch his breath for it to recharge even though he can cast other powers.
3) It kills the cool. Yeah, you have access to cool powers. But you can only learn 8 spells despite being the grand pooh-bah of the Warlock Consortium even if you are 30th level.
4) It is boring. Due to the change of rules and the pace of combat, encounters can last 10 rounds or more. So, after the 3 initial rounds where you'll have spent your encounter powers you'll have to either spend your daily powers or just cast magic missile over and over again. Bad.


Mechanics over realism.
Yeah, that. Suspension of disbelief makes DnD better than WOW. Now, DnD has a few good realism-killing qualities and the only reason for them is that the rules have moved from describing a fantasy setting and helping with the story into a calculator that enables players to kill stuff easily.
1) Ranges are irrealistic. No-one can shoot anything further than 20 squares. That's roughly 30 meters-closer than the average human could run in a 6 second DnD round.
2) Death and damage are irrealistic. The PCs are too tough to kill and too easy to heal. A fighter could be beaten to within 1 HP of unconsciousness and with a standard action go to 50 HP. Most PCs could heal twice their normal HP without extended rest-go from beaten to negatives to fully healed in 5 minutes without magical intervention twice a day.
3) PCs are tough, monsters are fodder. Just look at the damages-especially at high levels. Even high-level monsters cannot do more than 40 damage in a critical hit. A high-level fighter can do more than 70 points of damage with a daily in a normal hit. PCs heal and are tough to kill. Monsters never, ever get unconcious-they go from bloodied to dead.


Unsupported flavor
No monster has a single non-combat ability. Not even one in 500 monsters. The NPC-building guidelines also don't give non-combat abilities to NPCs. Monster flavor is not supported by the combat stats either. Monsters that are supposed to be infiltrators and assasins or abominations that kill anyone but themselves (that is, flavor-wise you'd encounter them solo) are elite monsters or even standards meaning that encounters have them pair with half a dozen other friends to be challenging.
In addition, there are very few powers that allow a monster to accomplish its flavor role as opposed to its mechanics role. Said infiltrators/assasins? No sneaking powers. Dominators? No power to make thralls. Liches? No power to make or control undead.




Verdict:
All in all, a much better ruleset, better support, solid guidelines for everything that might need them, balance and ease of play. Yet, despite the very well-made base rules, 4e is largely empty of content and flavor both in PCs and monsters and what content there is it is rendered unusable by quite a few bad calls in class, power and monster content.

I feel that by changing to 4e one simply exchanges one serious problem with another. You no longer get the imbalances and broken stuff-which 3.5 has more than any other edition-but in 4e you don't get the content even 3.5 core has.

Retirado do endereço: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81769